Surfski Knowledge Base

Paddling with others
Reivers Dustin
12/21/10 #9787

There is a bond when you paddle with others. Some in our group have experience with small group extreme situations, many do not. If you join some folks with a common adventure in mind, check this out.

Does each person share the idea that there is some commitment to the group? If not, is a person who cares nothing about it clear with everyone or would they maybe play any scenario to their own advantage? How about if someone brings a weak player along for social reasons with the idea that they will 'just take care of them'? If you are one who is independantly minded, are you prepared to leave people in distress? What if it is you that has a problem - would you take somebody's margin of safety down to give yourself a recovery?

In military operations these issues have slightly more clinical answers. But just between us kids, this can get messy.

We've talked in the past about making people demonstrate self rescue or kick somebody off the bus for not wearing good enough gear. Sounds nice. Which one of you is such an expert? (And enough of an ass.)

I'm not getting enough paddle time. So I'm thinking about stuff. What's your take?

rd

Re: Paddling with others
Pmarcus
12/21/10 #9788

Dr. Reivers is in the “house” and will now take your questions……………….

bottom line, if you want to paddle in 51 degree water and colder (like the lakes) and be exposed to our wind and rain and do not prepare for that then you shouldn't make anyone responsible for your actions by paddling with a paddler or (plural…)

Happy Holiday's Doctor………..Peter

Re: Paddling with others
rlingblo <rlingblo@…>
12/21/10 #9789

This is always an awkward subject. If you're not that good in rough water (like me), then you shouldn't paddle with others because you might put them in jeopardy? Better to just go out in the rough stuff alone and figure it out until you are good enough to paddle with others? You are right … It's messy. I struggle with trying to figure out where I fit in the mix all the time.

Rick L

Re: Paddling with others
happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
12/21/10 #9790

We learned an important lesson on this subject this past summer, when we set out to cross Rosario Strait one fine Friday, beautifully calm summer evening with a group of diverse and very experienced paddling friends.

Launching from near Washington Park and aiming for Spencer Spit on Lopez island, our antincipated routine crossing soon turned into one 'situation' after another…

Unexpected back-to-back shipping lane traffic split up the group within the first hour- with the faster paddlers making a break for it between tankers/freighters, and us waiting behind with slowest memmber. Then slowest member unexpectedly became slower with onset of unexpected health problems.

Currents changed. Winds picked up. Darkness came.

By the time we reached the shores of Lopez island our now split up group consisted of multiple sets of paddling partners (4 out of 7 of us) lost in the dark, either miles too far north or south.

Although we had agreed upon a VHF radio channel for the group, communication amongst members failed once the weather conditions deteriorated.

JZ & I ended up having to tow our friend,(Our loaded boat + her body weight & loaded boat) in the dark for nearly two hours, under sail in our tandem Necky Nootka in 2-3 foot chop in the 20mph+ winds…
I myself probably shouldn't even been out there at all, only 6 months from having multiple spinal surgeries, it was one of my first paddles since returning, and the effects of that much weight-bearing in those conditions was definitely a concern for a few weeks….

Lessons learned:
Stubborness is stupid, physical limits matter….The fastest paddlers may have the worst navigational skills!…The most trained members of the group might have the slowest paddling speeds!…Use what you know about yours and your friends skills as well as add up all of the group members 'baggage' when considering your emergency exit plans…
Choose your paddling partners wisely. Set your own group guidelines BEFORE YOU LEAVE SHORE- ie minimum speed req's, radio/ compass usage/familiarity, check-in/waiting factor.

What your friends don't know will surprise you, and when the sh*t hits the fan is not the time to find out!

NBZ

Re: Paddling with others
Larry <lbussing@…>
12/21/10 #9791

Like most things, you just need to communicate. Ask if someone will buddy up with you; someone with more rough water experience. Then you get a second opinion of your skills so you can chose the appropriate water to play in that will challenge your skill….safely.
What I don't want to see is that those who need to develop, can't find a way to challenge themselves safely.
Personally, I would be happy to buddy up with you on a rough water day. Just come over and ask. When I'm on the water, my plans are always flexable.
Larry B

Re: Paddling with others
john dye <johnmdye@…>
12/21/10 #9792

suggest work on leans, braces in more protected water, foam up the seat, make challenges for yourself in protected safer conditions that simulate rough water, then remove those challenges for paddling in rougher water. foaming up the seat in calm conditions is probably the easiest thing to do.

DO NOT GO OUT IN ROUGH CONDITIONS ALONE.
-JD

Re: Paddling with others
Reivers Dustin
12/22/10 #9795

OK. We've heard from a few of the big dogs. My thing here wasn't whether you should paddle by yourself or not. Mostly, that's a given. The heavy deal is how to behave on a group session. If you are Joost or Erik or one of these guys it's a deal breaker. (You guys didn't weigh in here, so I'm tossing a bon-mot your way.)

I think a group of more than three is an illusion. It's a lie that will make trouble unless the deal is spoken out loud. We go out there in a wolf-pack of six or twelve or whatever and everyone thinks we're together. I like the feeling - like we could bring shit we're so bad. Morris nailed it on the very first ABC: have a buddy.

This is not a team sport. Paddle by yourself and build your chops so you know your ground. I've logged many more hours by myself than I have with somebody. But just how weird is it to paddle with a gang? How do we get more of the mid-pack type guys out there with us? Should we?

Nadia, that situation you describe is almost the normal dynamic for larger group touring kayak scenarios. George Gronseth did a training workshop with many of the Whatcom Parks kayak guides and one of his drills was to secretly tease the group into splitting up (after warning them not to.) I've had some harsh military training on this (- ok, I was 19 y.o.) For touring/expeditions the golden rule is to never split up. Why this present discussion is different is that we are on racing craft, at workout level effort. It won't work to 'just stay together' - whereas that is just what WAKE or BCU doctrine says.

rd

Re: Paddling with others
happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
12/22/10 #9796

Right….and to add some background info to our tale, our group of paddlers were all independently RSVP'ing to a paddling party invite, so really, we hadn't planned to make that paddle journey together with a group of such diff. skills/speeds- from the getgo, it just kinda formed that day, as it happens sometimes…
All four paddler folks who got lost that day were not touring paddlers, but Whatcom Paddlers/Sound Rowers racers. The good thing is they stayed with their buddy. One pair camped out in a strangers yard, the other made it to destination after us, all of us were freezing & starving when we arrived after midnight…(And will never go on paddling trips with some of those friends again ;)

Re: Paddling with others
kathleen petereit
12/22/10 #9799

I'm the weak link in our tiny group of four. When we are all out the guys encourage me to push my limit in the waves and one of them always sticks by my side, they take turns looping back to me. We always pick landmarks where we will stop and wait for the others. Then they have me go off first and keep an eye on me from behind till they catch up. This is a real confidence booster and I am thankful that I have paddle buddies like this.

In the summer we have a great spot where the waves build up and we do loops back and forth which is good for all abilities as someone can always see you. The orange Mocke pfds are excellent for spotting your buddy.

Kathleen

Re: Paddling with others
Bill Walker <paddlazz@…>
12/22/10 #9800

This is an awesome ongoing discussion. Seems like I’ve seen something like it here before. Since I normally see most of your backs for a few minutes at the beginning of a race, then you’re over the horizon from me and my sea kayak, I can’t speak to proper training group etiquette specifically, but I can say “group dynamics” and “incident management” are topics that come up again and again in classes I’ve taught and taken, in guided trips I’ve led and participated in, and unfortunately in debriefs of avoidable tragedies. Here are some common themes:

If you’re going to leave the beach together, agree on a plan for how the group is going to act. If it’s important to stay together, say so. If it’s every man for himself, say so. If it’s a training paddle focused on beginner paddlers with the more experienced ones helping out, say so. If you’re going to buddy up, say so. Don’t let anyone leave the beach with one assumption, when the rest of the group is thinking something else. Whoever called the outing is fundamentally responsible for doing this, even if they’re not legally liable when something goes wrong. If appropriate (and it usually is), go over things like each person’s skill level, expected speed, and situations where they’re uncomfortable (rips, rough water landings, etc); who’s leading and who’s sweeping, and how far can they separate before regrouping; everyone’s equipment and whether it’s appropriate; everyone’s willingness and ability to help another if there’s trouble; group communication (vhf & otherwise); the planned route and any navigational challenges you might face; regroup points; emergency plans; emergency contact info for each person.

One of my best paddling buddies is a respected teacher from whom I’ve learned a lot. His mantra is that your most important piece of safety equipment is good judgment. Like the All in the Family episode where Meathead tells Archie he’s going to show him a picture of the most important sex organ, Archie peeks at it and says “I don’t got one a dose”, and of course it’s a picture of a brain. Use your head. Don’t be afraid to question a fellow paddler about their abilities, gear, or expectations. Communicate with each other before you paddle, or you’ll wish later that you did.

Be safe, boat happy, Merry Christmas – Bill

Re: Paddling with others
MischaUriah
12/23/10 #9808

Great discussion. What about another winter session on the lake or in the bay, with spotter boats, where the intent is not to get out there and do anything race pace, but rather to practice exits, remounts, rescues, test equipment like leashes, all with people around who could offer up advice and maybe even demonstrate. Doing all this on a day when the conditions are challenging (ie, today) would make it even more meaningful. We've done these before, with great success I think, but new folks are always drifting into the sport and looking for guidance on how to take the next step toward big-water proficiency.

Like many of us, I tend to paddle alone when time allows and consequently tend to play it safe when conditions are ugly. This helps me return to shore safely, but the unfortunate consequence is my big-water skills haven't developed much over the years.

Some weekend in January or February?

Happy Holidays everyone,
Mischa

Re: Paddling with others
Larry <lbussing@…>
12/23/10 #9809

The only one I know who consistently practises getting back in the boat is Roger. He does it every time, religiously. I've just started. I'm a victim of growing up with cold, cold water in Montana and learning to paddle by myself. Where, as Shane would say: “going over is not an option!” Seriously, that has been my mantra for so long that mentally it is extremely diffcult for me to get into the water off the boat,even in Lake Whatcom, even in Hawaii! Consequently, my remount skills don't really match my stay upright skills. I need to conquer my adversion to falling over so I can get better getting on. I'm up for some winter rescuing practice. How about every saturday after the regular paddle, say 11:00, next to shore. We can graduate to more exposed water. Maybe more people would be inclined to join us and more varied techniques can be shared. Larry B

Re: Paddling with others
Brandon Nelson <brandon@…>
12/23/10 #9810

Great post, Bill, and great discussion from everyone. Yeah, this particular thread re-appears about 3 or 4 times a year since I’ve been reading WP, and my two cents on that fact is:

1) That’s the way it should be. Pushing, then going pro-actively “back to basics” is the essence of improving in EVERYTHING. And…

2) As a group, we’ve come a LONG way towards a generally safer collective mind-set, skill-set, gear quiver, etc. There’s always room for more improvement, of course, but if you’ve upgraded your cold weather wear, added lights, reflective tape, field repair gizmos, a radio…. or if you’ve formed a new safety habit, then give yourself a pat on the back. Acknowledge the small victory. Then get back to asking, “How else can I be safer?”

I also want to chime in with two technical bits that I’ve personally had result in near-tragedy in my own paddling, and they’re obvious but easily over-looked. They are:

1) Fitness level. About 95% of us drop in fitness level this time of year because we’re not racing weekly or keeping that base, racer’s training regimen going. When you’re fit, and feeling weak or tired on the water isn’t an issue, then you’re a LOT safer in general. Find an off-season workout routine – and it does not have to be paddling or water-related – to keep your cardio and strength up. Ergs, Cross-fit, running, stationary bike, weights and machines. Keep the fitness base – especially cardio – at an above-merely-maintenance level, and you will be less of a liability to yourself and to others because ALLLL your energy won’t be going into just staying upright when things turn sour or if you go out in what’s already sour. The best non-paddling example I can relate to is mountain biking. Ever notice how wobbly you feel and how often you put your feet down when you’re a couch potato, versus when you’re in shape and fit? It’s night and day.

2) Your boat choice. If you’re passionate about winter paddling in the PNW and while driving to put-in on a storm day a full half of your thoughts are spent hoping you’ll “have a good day” and feel stable, odds are – among other things – you’re in the wrong boat. This one I’ve had bight me big time. I started a 3-day Sierra Nevada river run in a boat that, for me, was tippy and unresponsive. 2 days into it I left the canyon in a U.S. Navy helicopter with a dislocated shoulder. I’d been paddling all winter, it’s not like I was just off the couch. It was the boat, it just knocked me down to a much lower skill level than that river demanded. After surgery and rehab I went back to what was a stable and redundantly reliable design, and paddled with a big smile on my face through the end of my whitewater days. (Or that chapter of it, anyway. J). Bottom line: get a more stable boat for storm paddling. DJ’s offering ridiculous pricing on his Mako XTs. Grab an R. Find a Sport, an Evo, an Epic V8. Help take “tippy” out of the picture during the big stuff if you’re set on being out there. As a bonus: You’ll probably be even faster and link a lot more waves! Try it!

Merry Christmas, Everyone. It’s been an awesome year here in the greatest surfski epicenter in the nation, and we’re stoked to be part of it once again!

Brandon, Heather and Hayden