Surfski Knowledge Base

Larry Goolsby
05/04/13 #14272

Well run race today. Conditions were optimum - not too hot or cold. Large crowd on the starting line started creeping forward just before the horn went off. Hammer kept his cool and didn't force them back. This is probably the one race we can draft anything on the water. I like it for this reason. The race as a whole is boring, but when you can glom onto another boat and conserve energy, it feels kinda like you're stealing something.
Nice race Mike!
LG

lori & beau whitehead
05/05/13 #14273

There are drafting rules at the other races?

Beau Whitehead

Ted Scherrer
05/05/13 #14274

With Samish you can only wake in your category.

babyrebozo

05/05/13 #14275

I would also like to give Mike, and all who helped, many thanks for the great job putting on the race. And also, although he doesn't realize it, for next year's classic, Alan Lipp is in charge of buoy inflation after his moment of brilliance…….you inflate the large buoys OUTSIDE the gym!

What a great race, beautiful day, and a chance to paddle up and back with the likes of Brandon, Peter and Igor, Morris and Debbie, and my hard working partner, Marc. That guy really has got game!

Hope everyone had as much fun as we did.

Pete

It's DIVORCE time!!!
Brandon Nelson <brandon@…>
05/05/13 #14276

I realize there are mixed feelings about this topic, but a conversation and even a vote are in order.

I say it’s time for an on-water DIVORCE of rowing craft from paddle craft during Soundrowers races.

One group or the other should start in their own wave, 5-10 minutes before the other group, depending on course length and tightness.

• Paddlers getting chopped by oars;
• Rowers getting cluttered by paddlers;
• A few paddlers sucking the wake of a rowing craft while the skis they’d normally be competitive with “missing out”;

There’s a lot of grumbling from both sides. Isn’t it time to break up so we can all stay friends?

Curious to know what others think.

Brandon

Brandon Nelson

babyrebozo
05/05/13 #14277

Do I hear Tammy Wynette in the background?

paul clement
05/05/13 #14278

As an admitted offender (am I an offender if it is legal..?), I say this could be easily extended to any boat out of class. In fact, given the speed differential of male doubles and mixed doubles and singles, I think it should be. I give a personal pass to Beau so I can get some screen time though. Make it so Brandon!

pc

Michael Gregory
05/05/13 #14279

Good luck Brandon. Drafting out of class has been a perennial issue at Sound Rowers races. In SA or Aus ya get a DQ for such behavior. In Sound Rowers races medals are awarded. Go figure?

Brandon N <brandon@…>
05/05/13 #14280

To be clear, I'm not necessarily talking about merely “drafting out of class.” I mean specifically paddle-driven being separated from oar-driven craft, like what is now the standard at the Lake Samish race.

I had a unique and all-around positive “drafting out of class” race yesterday. 3 tandems and I raced the entire course together with no less than, I would guess, 20 lead changes. Pete Wells and Marc Whitlock took the longest lead early on for about 10 minutes. Other than that, no boat stayed on point for more than 4 or 5 minutes at a time. At the end we all put the hammer down and – as my buddy Carlos likes to say, “The score we got was the score we deserved.”

To take a concept we all discussed a few years back, no one in our group “raced like a wussy” drafting the entire race then sprinting only at the finish line, and no one “raced like a bone-head” and pulled a drafter the entire race, only to get sprinted by at the end.
I heard a LOT of stoke from lots of racers after the race (Thanks Mike Hammer and volunteers!!!), but the 3 or 4 gripes I heard were 100% related to ski-vs-shell physics or (lack of) etiquette.

MARC ROBERTA WHITLOCK
05/05/13 #14282

I'm all for what Brandon has proposed. This seems to be slowly realized as LaConnor also had separate starts this year, as well, after a disastrous start the year before. It makes sense and hasn't taken any of the fun out of the races.

Just to correct Brandon's report from my POV (one who tends toward the “bonehead” tactic) that Brandon pulled for close to 10 when the pace was really hot in the first stretch.

Marc

Larry Goolsby
05/05/13 #14285

I dunno…..Some of my best finishes were because a tandem rower dragged my sorry ass up and down the lake. In fact, if I remember correctly, we once dragged Brandon along with us. Besides, Shaun and I have developed some great symbiotic aliances through drafting. As long as the rower pulled us along, we were able to tell him/her which way to alter their course. We usually always told them that they weren't going fast enough. Do you realy want to sever the bonding between a rower and his human compass?

LG

Reivers Dustin
05/06/13 #14286

I'm for split start. But we're asking race director to work some magic. So it's the race director's call. In our discussion here, we're mixing up safety and racing ettiquette.

Rowing shells can't steer good and throw that lever arm a mile from the center of mass. Its deceptive for paddlers - you think you have lots of room. So a crash is more than just a little pooh & bother. The sweep has tremendous force, more than a guy pulling on a stick. I've heard of busted ribs, wrists, etc. from jammed sweeps.

As far as drafting, it's so much of an honor code. There's no way to police it, so in mixed groups what the heck. I remember some rowdy Canadian women in a C-2, in a race on Deas Slough schooling me pretty rough, then after the race just charming the socks off of me (I was single then). Or another example, an OC-2 just pushed me off with their amma. I was shocked, but told later I should have just hooked the amma with my paddle and dumped them.

We have such a great bunch here in the Northwest. Don't want to be a downer, but we should not get too naive about how the big races are. If we train ourselves to race with dignified aplomb, we'll come off poorly in the big rough and tumble scenarios.

Now that I've said that, I'm a mid-pack rat anyway. This topic has a little more weight in the upper half of the curve. So I'll go with whichever how you wanna do it.

The Reivers Abides.

babyrebozo
05/06/13 #14287

Our surfski group, making it's way down the lake, (gang of four), is really the way it should work, and it really fun and not hard to do. Marathon canoeists always do this once the race pace settles in……you form a temporary alliance, and work together. And if your riding the bow wave, when you pull through, you're only moving up a few feet. We were even making up ground on Greg for a little while. But after the island, things were not quite so orderly, and for me, it was more just sitting in, and hanging on.

What Brandon proposes here has been suggested before. We all know, if there is a fast wake in front of us……of any kind…..we'll all hop on. I would say, if you have the shells start first, put them way out there, so they are not caught by the faster skis.
Pete

Morris Arthur
05/06/13 #14289

Yes. I support multiple waves as a method of keeping boats away from each other (as long as it's not too inconvenient for the race director).

However, I personally compete against every boat in my wave, and I'll use every (liquid) wave I can to finish closer to the boat in front of me… regardless of size, sex, age or construction.

My only “rules of honor” are:
-No boat/paddle contact with another boat/paddle.
-Any bow in front of my bow has the right of way.

We had a lot of fun out there on Saturday.
Thank you Michael and the dedicated Sound Rowers for making it happen…

Morris

allipp01

05/06/13 #14290

I'd have to say that there should be at least a 5 minute gap between starts, with the usually faster craft (eg rowing shells) starting first.

The faster paddlers such as the top surfskiers are definitely going to catch the slower shells. But seriously, if you are able to catch someone from 5 minutes behind, do you really want to draft them?

hilburnjjcl
05/06/13 #14292

In regards to drafting out of class, that is an ego thing that each individual has to mull over. The top dogs can draft faster craft because they are faster than the rest of us. I've gotten extremely bent out of shape when I was unable to get on a double, but in retrospect, if I was stronger I would have just sprinted to the other side to catch the ride or drafted the wing of the drafting boat. Drafting the bow wave is a skill set that takes practice. Some of us enjoy racing Wednesday nights, while others enjoy downwinders in the Gorge. The top paddlers will beat us no matter the conditions and no matter if they draft or not. In my opinion, the only true way not to feel like you got “cheated or wronged” during races is to be in such great shape that drafting will not affect your race. Racing for me is not how I relax and have a good time. It is intense and painful and stirs up lots of emotion. Racing etiquette is a nice concept unless your HR is 180 and you get cut off a draft on Wednesday night. My ego is fragile when it comes to racing, so I have to be careful which situations I put myself in. Flat water racing is not the best style of racing for me. Again, drafting out of class is an ego thing. Get faster=drafting anywhere and anytime. The rest of us should just try to enjoy the view.

Jeff Hilburn

Brandon N <brandon@…>
05/06/13 #14294

Let's take drafting out of the discussion and for a moment focus on the other issues: clutter and damage. The free-for-all starting line format in our races can be a fun part of the event. But it's hectic enough between paddle-craft without interspersing oar-wielding, backwards-facing, faster more powerful craft in the same line-up.

I mean, try describing the scene to someone who's never even been in a boat, or seen a race.
“So there must be lanes, right?”
“No, everyone just kind of packs in there.”
“But then, you say there are rowing shells? And they're just packed in there too?”
“Yeah. Only they're facing backwards, and they're like five times wider than everyone else, and their oars just swing with crazy force.”
“Sooo… don't boats get damaged?”
“Well yeah. Sometimes an oar will just chop right through some carbon. It makes this awful sound. Sometimes you just get a tangle of boats and bodies wedged together, people are yelling, it's nutty.”
“But, you just keep doing it that way?”
“Well, yeah. I mean, it comes up every other year or so that maybe we should change it, and a couple races do separate starts. But, you know, change is hard.”
“Hmmmm. I gotta go.”
And as for timing, I'm not sure how it's done at Lake Samish, but could it be as simple as noting exactly when the paddlers start behind the rowers, and subtracting that time from their finish? Am I missing something?

waterbornewarrior
05/06/13 #14295

Keep in mind that Sound Rowers is a loose affiliation of independent races. It's an umbrella for things like insurance and some resources. Race Directors have a lot of leeway in how they run their races. In my opinion, this sort of decision is up to individual RDs, and since it's already been done at multiple races, I can't imagine there would be any SR opposition to doing it. If you have strong feelings about doing it at a specific race, lobby the RD (in the case of Whatcom, Mr. Hammer). If you feel that it should be implemented at all races, come to the Sound Rowers annual meeting on Dec. 7.

Regarding timing, Webscorer supports multiple start times (wave start), so it should be quite simple.

My personal suggestion would be for 10 or even 15 minutes between waves, to allow for launching and clearing of the start area for warm ups, etc.

Don

dnjacobson79

05/07/13 #14296

How about changing the train of thought from 'DIVORCE' to maybe 'unity within the community' or 'friends with benefits'. Seems like a lot has been already said about this topic, but I think it ultimately comes the decision of the race director - they're the ones volunteering significant time & effort to organize local races. Look at the 'no drafting out of class' policy the Mt Baker Crew implemented last year at Lake Samish, it worked out well - but also when you have t-shirts, best race feed around, hotspots, prizes, etc, you can do what you want…

I think most of us like drafting something at flatwater races & most Sound Rowers events tend to be flat. I've heard a little parking lot griping in the past about some folks grabbing 'free rides' or 'milking the mothership', but usually when I'm on a draft I'm either tweaking to stay on, killing myself to loose whoever is drafting me, or exchanging turns pulling - whatever the combo, seems to help develop the 'race within the race' feel and increase the fun factor. Seems like there might be good reasons for race organizers to separate boats which face forward vs. backward - but you need to give a big enough time gap b/t the two starts, many of us passed many of the rowers last year at Lake Samish even with 5-10 min gap b/t starts. Heck, I got ahead of the W8 shell last weekend on the short course at the turn mark, jumped back onto them & held at a 9-10mph pace, pushed out to the left to try to get around them at the finish, they swerved 90 degree to try to give me a good kidney shot, I slammed on the brakes to miss a collision & ended beating them to the finish because they had over turned to try to block my move - heck, I loved those race tactics - made the short course exciting! For that matter, I love it when I see someone drafting off Beau - yo, he's standing and using one paddle - & maintaining 6.0!

Big thanks to Mike and the race crew for putting on a GREAT event. Also, kudos to Devon Bumstead who rocked the short course solo - I'll be drafting off you soon enough!
See you at the Wednesday nighter -
DJ

Greg Gilda <ggilda@…>
05/08/13 #14304

Hey gang- I've been out of town and catching on this thread. Thought I would give you some feedback from the LaConner race directors' point of view. It has been an interesting topic over the years. Until this year, we have resisted multiple starts for a few reasons 1) was that the mass start is an feature in soundrowers that many like..it guarantees that you always have someone to race, even if they are out of your class. It may not be as pure of an experience for the ultra-fast ones at the front of the packe, but is what keeps the non-elites coming back for more. there are many cross-class rivalries that go back years and the comraderie is what many enjoy. 2) the timing and organization level for mass starts takes a bit more work. The new ipad timing system actually gave us a tool that takes some of the sting out of the process, but you still have to deal with extending the race time, getting people on the water in time, etc. 3) it complicates the coverage for the safety boats, which is critical with the temperatures that time of year.

After the race this year (with the staggered start), I had more negative feedback than positive. Currently I'm undecided for next year. I think some of the bigger issues we have had at LaConner were more ettiquette issues that happened on the return leg, during warmups and lineup, and during the launch. I've heard as many complaints between the paddling groups (surfskis bumping OC's, etc) as I have between paddlers and rowers.

Anyway, I understand the sentiment, but I think either way is a package deal- you get the good and the bad regardless of which way you go.

-Greg

Erik Borgnes
05/08/13 #14305

I think someone already gave the best answer - each race director can make the decision based on the turnout and the course. Obviously, there's no reason to have wave starts at Shaw or Bainbridge, etc.

I also suspect the paddler / rower issue may be one that annoys the rowers more than the paddlers because after the starting horn sounds, paddlers are zig-zagging towards boat washes while the rowers are attempting to maintain their “lane” - two very different strategies - not to mention that the rowers cannot view or predict the zig-zagging happening off their bow. Therefore, the issue might be best decided by the race directors and the rowers at each race.

EB

Lake Whatcom photos now online
Michael Lampi
05/05/13 #14281

http://soundrowersphoto.org/photography/2013/Lake%20Whatcom%202013/index.html

Here are the photos from the race. For some reason almost everyone decided to start on the other side of the lake from me, so there aren't a lot of good shots of the faster boats at the start.

I had to stop 3/4 of the way through and just paddle slowly toward the finish due to an extremely sore bottom and leg cramps. After about 15 minutes I was able to limp home at a measly 5.5 mph. The results show me as the penultimate long course finisher, but I swear that the guy who supposedly finished ahead of me actually was behind me the whole time. C'est la vie.

Anyway, even with the stop my time was only 8 minutes slower than last year's time. Maybe it was too much Gatorade, maybe I was going at too fast a pace for the first half, or maybe I haven't been on the water enough…

Michael Lampi

Lake Whatcom Classic Records??
Pmarcus
05/05/13 #14284

Well…I was just wondering about results as that first double rowing shell and first HPK went by at the finish line, still at super sonic speed…so I looked up results over the last 12 years and both the the double Men's rowing shell and Mr. Barton in the HPK were world records on Saturday!!

I also was reminded how this race started…A canoe race to the end of the lake and back, 22 miles, thirty boats….of course it was back in the Steam Engine days…..

And, as a witness to a four person racing shell and surfski sandwich about two minutes into the start and other race complications involving double bladers and rowers in other races, usually right at the start…maybe its time, especially when the some of races attract large numbers, start separate to avoid Carbon Fiber crunching!!

Nice job Mike H.

Peter

Re: start times and drafting
Elana Ecker
05/07/13 #14298

I appreciate all the dialog. I've been reading the posts about drafting, start times, safety etc and would like to comment. I feel a bit novice speaking up as I've only been a paddler for a short time and am completely unaware of the history. With that said,

Here is my voice - I am all for having different start times for rowers/backward facing water craft and forward facing water crafts as it seems to increase the potential risk of injury to person and property significantly when they start together.

A 5, 10 or 15 minute lead for rowers may do the trick to increase safety for all racers.

Drafting- love it, I am all for drafting forward facing water crafts, doubles, singles, surf-ski 's, OC -1-6, boys, girls, mixed/confused etc. as that is how we all get faster and can make it fun. The expectations are clear and not so complicated. if you look forward to where you are going and can catch/stay with them, then you can draft em.

The gist is-
Rowers start with rowers

Forward facing water rafts start with other forward facing water crafts with open drafting.

Yes, I read that ultimately start times are up to the race director. Therefor race directors please strongly consider different start times for forward facing and rear facing watercraft and then allow drafting within each group. However being a former WSU rower I never drafted another rowing shell.

Thanks for reading. safe paddling. Cheers. E

Re: start times and drafting
Dale McKinnon
05/07/13 #14299

I am chuckling in my soup… Rowers don't draft, but they sometimes crab. Now, I'm waiting for the retorts from the wittier member of wp.

Re: start times and drafting
flypaddle
05/07/13 #14303

Hey Gang,

I just have to chime in on this one, since I've had a couple of decades experience with racing against rowers.

I can honestly say that in all my years duking it out with them, I have never even remotely experienced the events that Brandon had described at the start. By never, I mean… not even once. There might be a few reasons for this. Perhaps I am slightly quicker off the line then the average bear (to quote Yogi), so by the time they haul me in, the race has been thinned out enough that it's not an issue. Perhaps the other reason is that I've found it to be intuitively obvious that if you line up next to someone who's wingspan is 10-12' diameter, then perhaps a little room may be in order, or perhaps starting behind someone who after 30 seconds in the race can be 5 boat lengths ahead of you might be a better strategy.

I have always enjoyed the comraderie of have all types of watercraft on the starting line, and rowers are no exception. Getting rid of them at the start to me would be like getting rid of the rusty bucket turn on the Wednesday Niter. I realize why everyone did it, but adding a perceived hazard makes things interesting from a strategic standpoint. Afterall, if you want to sterilize a putput golf course by getting rid of the obnoxious windmill in the middle, you're left with a bland green carpet with just a hole in it.

Just my opinion,

BTW, the Shaw Island Race will have everyone starting at the same time.

Joost

A Phenomenal discussion: It's DIVORCE time!!!
Brandon Nelson <brandon@…>
05/08/13 #14306

Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread. There’s plenty here to inspire perhaps “increased thoughtfulness” on the part of racers lining up next to rowers, and race directors to give thought to wave starts if the number of racers and course make that appropriate.

Drafting in and out of class, etiquette, style, or lack of those qualities… that debate is so infinitely subjective, it will go on forever.

And truly, the diverse opinions are so fun. Reminds me of reading The Climb by Boukreev after I’d read Into Thin Air by Krakauer. How eye-opening and incredible to read such different versions and accounts of the same event.

Joost, you’ve had a unique and fortuitous, decades-long career having escaped even remotely experiencing what I described. I’ve been blessed with the same track record so far, personally, but I’ve also introduced a few seriously bummed out racers to Sterling, if you catch my drift. Heather was lucky on Saturday not to be visiting Sterling after her tangle with a four.

I remember a couple Lake Whatcom Classics ago, Joost, you and I were drafting a single shell heading for the island. I was on his stern wake and you were riding my left bow wake. Then you made a move up to draft the shell’s bow wake by tucking in not 12 inches from his outrigger. How all those parts were moving in such close proximity, at 8+ mph, without ever touching, was like watching two guys juggle chainsaws together. Finally, after a minute or two, the rower nonchalantly said, “That’s a little close, don’t you think?” And I remember thinking, “These guys could both be pilots with the Blue Angels!” It was something else.

Greg Gilda, thanks for chiming in with first-hand, real world experience from the race director’s viewpoint. You clearly nailed it on the head with your final sentence: “you get the good and the bad regardless of which way you go.”

See you on the water.

B