Surfski Knowledge Base

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/12/10 #9620

20 feet long, 17 inches wide AND you'd be able to self rescue with a roll…

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/content/boats/sport/rapier-20

Larry <lbussing@…>
11/12/10 #9621

Interesting, anyone in our area have one? Larry B

Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@…>
11/12/10 #9622

Anyone think 'they bad,' check out the Arctic Cheetah and paddler Martin Leonard. Martin paddled the entire Northwest Passage, crossed the Bering Sea, and endeavors to paddle the entire Alaskan coastline… mostly in a custom 20' foot long 14.5“ waterline enclosed cockpit boat designed after a ski and a K2, with a wing blade. I spent a week paddling with him in the Broken Islands, in a previous life, and his quiet camp fire stories are incredible. His alpine approach to crossings, in which he equates speed to safety, are unique. You won't hear about him because he's mellow, but check out the complete story of the development of the Cheetah, and his expeditions, at

http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html .

Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@…>
11/12/10 #9623

Oh yeah, also… the Bering Sea crossing was done on an old style 19' ski (not what we would call phat). The group paddled 400 miles, crossed 27 miles to the Diomede Islands in fog… and were 6 miles north of the islands when the fog cleared. Currents, huge seas and 25 knot winds made progress south impossible. They ended up getting rescued by natives in a skin boat; my friend Kelly's boat was later found in Barrows in the ice. Kelly was dropped off on the Russian Diomede, and after the guns were put down, he convinced them to go rescue the rest of the group. Martin and his partner somehow managed to get a boat, and paddled to Russia, thus achieving the destination… a great camp story for sure. It was this trip where Martin saw the potential of touring on a ski, which led to the Arctic Cheetah.

http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html

steven wort
11/12/10 #9624

Dan Henderson had one hanging from his ceiling for a couple years, dont know if its still there, you could give him a call and find out.

There was a review of this boat, and a couple of other comparable high perf sea kayaks - Nelo Sea Vanquish, Nelo FW2000, Sipre katabatic?, etc on a UK surf ski site, but my link to that is now dead :(

The Rapier 20 was generally perceived to be the most stable ( and slowest) of the group.

Valley had one at the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium a few years back, and I took a look, but no paddle. The cockpit opening looks pretty small for a racing boat, and it has monster thigh braces, and a VERY sculptured seat that looks like it would NOT be very conducive to a powerfull forward stroke?

~Steve

Reivers Dustin
11/12/10 #9625

Listed weight is 48 pounds. The low seating position, rudder position and other points Steve makes below are enough for me: no way.

There's a handful of guys who could beat me in this boat for the first 3 miles. Longer than this distance and I'm good. Nobody anywhere can have as much fun on this boat in waves as I can in an XT, R, Sport, OC-1 boat, etc.

Apples and oranges.

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/12/10 #9627

JZ will tell ya a story of racing a few years ago in his S1X when a guy (Sean Morley) came blasting by him in a Valley Rapier to finish just two minutes behind Eric Moll and second in HPK class…

Check out the race results http://soundrowersphoto.org/results/cbay2007.htm

Michael Gregory
11/12/10 #9629

Rapier has proven itself to be a very fast boat many times over. However, it's still a kayak with an enclosed cockpit. I don't know of any offshore racers that prefer an enclosed cockpit kayak to a ski. Practiced roll or not those boats are less suitable to long rough races, for all but a very few. Mike.

brianpage2b1
11/15/10 #9637

Ecomarine up here in Vancouver BC has had and sold a few of the Rapier's in the last two years. You might be able to demo one if Dan sold his.

My impression of the boat on a test paddle was that it was disappointing in performance for such a sexy looking boat. You give up some safety (unless you have a bomb proof roll), re-entry would be no less difficult than in a Necky Phantom, and for not much gain in the speed department. I concurr with Mike!

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/16/10 #9639

Since the only waves we're chasing here in the PNW are frigid, hypothermia & death inducing wind-induced, rather than sweeeet, tropical ocean swells, having a closed hull racing craft with similar specs to a sit on top surfski, even if just for winter training, provides more options for self-rescue & hence improves safety, bottomline.

Seats & rudders can be switched out to improve comfort. Rolls can be learned. Lives can be saved.

Reivers Dustin
11/16/10 #9640

I've been wondering what others might reply to this.

For myself, I'm convinced that enclosed in a cockpit can never be as safe as sealed vessel for the kayaking public.

George Gronseth is a pretty good source for kayak safety. His report on greenland style kayak instruction from the natives is great information. A key statement he made is that for native kayakers: seperation from the boat is death. The parka they wear is made an exact fit for the person - as is the boat. From the time that new paddlers are allowed in the boat, they are expected to roll. They are taught to read weather. They can tell distance from shore by wave/wind patterns. They are aggresively, repeatedly dumped and expected to show instinctive rolling with and without a paddle.

Dale and I had talked briefly about area paddling fatalities. Does anyone remember the lady's name that died just offshore from Larrabee perhaps 15 years ago? She guided for Whatcom Parks and for parties all over the place. She was a highly respected touring guide. Found upside down in her boat. The speculation I heard was that her new equipment somehow trapped her.

My point? No kayaker around here has the skills that the traditional kayakers have. Paul Caffyn? sure. (Made himself cups of tea on the deck of his Nordcap as he rounded Australia). Derek Hutchinson? sure.

Me? no way.

steven wort
11/16/10 #9641

It’s all about where you want to put your time. Learning to roll, or learning to remount a ski.
I took a look at the CDC fatality rates a while back, and kayak vs surfski isn’t broken out, but kayak vs Canoe is, and deaths from canoes are way higher than from kayaks.