Surfski Knowledge Base

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/12/10 #9620

20 feet long, 17 inches wide AND you'd be able to self rescue with a roll…

http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/content/boats/sport/rapier-20

Larry <lbussing@…>
11/12/10 #9621

Interesting, anyone in our area have one? Larry B

Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@…>
11/12/10 #9622

Anyone think 'they bad,' check out the Arctic Cheetah and paddler Martin Leonard. Martin paddled the entire Northwest Passage, crossed the Bering Sea, and endeavors to paddle the entire Alaskan coastline… mostly in a custom 20' foot long 14.5“ waterline enclosed cockpit boat designed after a ski and a K2, with a wing blade. I spent a week paddling with him in the Broken Islands, in a previous life, and his quiet camp fire stories are incredible. His alpine approach to crossings, in which he equates speed to safety, are unique. You won't hear about him because he's mellow, but check out the complete story of the development of the Cheetah, and his expeditions, at

http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html .

Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@…>
11/12/10 #9623

Oh yeah, also… the Bering Sea crossing was done on an old style 19' ski (not what we would call phat). The group paddled 400 miles, crossed 27 miles to the Diomede Islands in fog… and were 6 miles north of the islands when the fog cleared. Currents, huge seas and 25 knot winds made progress south impossible. They ended up getting rescued by natives in a skin boat; my friend Kelly's boat was later found in Barrows in the ice. Kelly was dropped off on the Russian Diomede, and after the guns were put down, he convinced them to go rescue the rest of the group. Martin and his partner somehow managed to get a boat, and paddled to Russia, thus achieving the destination… a great camp story for sure. It was this trip where Martin saw the potential of touring on a ski, which led to the Arctic Cheetah.

http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html

steven wort
11/12/10 #9624

Dan Henderson had one hanging from his ceiling for a couple years, dont know if its still there, you could give him a call and find out.

There was a review of this boat, and a couple of other comparable high perf sea kayaks - Nelo Sea Vanquish, Nelo FW2000, Sipre katabatic?, etc on a UK surf ski site, but my link to that is now dead :(

The Rapier 20 was generally perceived to be the most stable ( and slowest) of the group.

Valley had one at the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium a few years back, and I took a look, but no paddle. The cockpit opening looks pretty small for a racing boat, and it has monster thigh braces, and a VERY sculptured seat that looks like it would NOT be very conducive to a powerfull forward stroke?

~Steve

Reivers Dustin
11/12/10 #9625

Listed weight is 48 pounds. The low seating position, rudder position and other points Steve makes below are enough for me: no way.

There's a handful of guys who could beat me in this boat for the first 3 miles. Longer than this distance and I'm good. Nobody anywhere can have as much fun on this boat in waves as I can in an XT, R, Sport, OC-1 boat, etc.

Apples and oranges.

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/12/10 #9627

JZ will tell ya a story of racing a few years ago in his S1X when a guy (Sean Morley) came blasting by him in a Valley Rapier to finish just two minutes behind Eric Moll and second in HPK class…

Check out the race results http://soundrowersphoto.org/results/cbay2007.htm

Michael Gregory
11/12/10 #9629

Rapier has proven itself to be a very fast boat many times over. However, it's still a kayak with an enclosed cockpit. I don't know of any offshore racers that prefer an enclosed cockpit kayak to a ski. Practiced roll or not those boats are less suitable to long rough races, for all but a very few. Mike.

brianpage2b1
11/15/10 #9637

Ecomarine up here in Vancouver BC has had and sold a few of the Rapier's in the last two years. You might be able to demo one if Dan sold his.

My impression of the boat on a test paddle was that it was disappointing in performance for such a sexy looking boat. You give up some safety (unless you have a bomb proof roll), re-entry would be no less difficult than in a Necky Phantom, and for not much gain in the speed department. I concurr with Mike!

happypaddle <happypaddle@…>
11/16/10 #9639

Since the only waves we're chasing here in the PNW are frigid, hypothermia & death inducing wind-induced, rather than sweeeet, tropical ocean swells, having a closed hull racing craft with similar specs to a sit on top surfski, even if just for winter training, provides more options for self-rescue & hence improves safety, bottomline.

Seats & rudders can be switched out to improve comfort. Rolls can be learned. Lives can be saved.

Reivers Dustin
11/16/10 #9640

I've been wondering what others might reply to this.

For myself, I'm convinced that enclosed in a cockpit can never be as safe as sealed vessel for the kayaking public.

George Gronseth is a pretty good source for kayak safety. His report on greenland style kayak instruction from the natives is great information. A key statement he made is that for native kayakers: seperation from the boat is death. The parka they wear is made an exact fit for the person - as is the boat. From the time that new paddlers are allowed in the boat, they are expected to roll. They are taught to read weather. They can tell distance from shore by wave/wind patterns. They are aggresively, repeatedly dumped and expected to show instinctive rolling with and without a paddle.

Dale and I had talked briefly about area paddling fatalities. Does anyone remember the lady's name that died just offshore from Larrabee perhaps 15 years ago? She guided for Whatcom Parks and for parties all over the place. She was a highly respected touring guide. Found upside down in her boat. The speculation I heard was that her new equipment somehow trapped her.

My point? No kayaker around here has the skills that the traditional kayakers have. Paul Caffyn? sure. (Made himself cups of tea on the deck of his Nordcap as he rounded Australia). Derek Hutchinson? sure.

Me? no way.

steven wort
11/16/10 #9641

It’s all about where you want to put your time. Learning to roll, or learning to remount a ski.
I took a look at the CDC fatality rates a while back, and kayak vs surfski isn’t broken out, but kayak vs Canoe is, and deaths from canoes are way higher than from kayaks.

Larry Goolsby
11/16/10 #9642

I have difficulty understanding when someone that is not a seasoned surfski paddler could say that kayaks are safer in rough conditions. I started as a kayaker and still paddle one on summer trips. I would not take a sea kayak out in epic conditions. Not all sea kayaks roll the same and some hardly roll at all. If you do a wet exit from your kayak, good luck getting back in in rough conditions. There has been only one death (that we know of) of a surfski paddler. The anniversary of his death is this month. Working in emergency rooms over the last 22 years (and watching the news) has shown me that the number of kayak deaths severely outweighs surfski deaths. I don't see kayaks out playing in the waves when the wind is blowing and the waves are big. Comparing kayaks and surfskis is like comparing apples and oranges; they are two differnt watercraft that are used for two different types of paddling. The rudder systems are also designed for two different purposes; the surfski rudder is designed to stay on a wave. So please, if you have proof that kayaks are safer than surfskis, then share that info with us. Otherwise, please don't make blanket statements that 'lives could be saved'. There are enough kayak deaths, we don't need more.

Larry Goolsby

Dale McKinnon
11/16/10 #9643

Not sure if folks remember, but two Deception Pass Dashes ago, I witnessed and photographed two kayak rescues, one by a Rescue Kayaker (RKer), the other by the Sheriff's Department boat. The conditions were close to epic and the seas continued to build. Several surfskiers dumped, but they got back on their boats and continued paddling (either quitting the race or continuing on). In the case of the kayaker rescued by the RKer, he managed to pump out his kayak as the RKer hung onto the bow end by draping his body over the hull and wrapping his arms completely around the craft to stabilize it, while its occupant madly pumped.

In the case of the Sheriff's boat rescue, those of us on board, witnessed a woman caught lengthwise in the trough, expertly rolling and coming up in her Greenland-style boat, but she couldn't STOP rolling. On her fifth roll (about 50 feet off the west side of Deception Island) we heard a weak “help” while a contestant stopped and grabbed her boat as we carefully motored close enough to throw a rescue line to them and pull them carefully away from the rocks on the island. The trick was to get her boat aboard without damaging it. She was in a drysuit, she had a superb rescue roll, she thought she had the skills to handle very nasty chop, but the Monster below demonstrated otherwise. She got caught in the trough and and couldn't stop the merry-go-round.

There were several stories about the conditions of that race, but I learned one very clear fact: A surfski is a heckuva lot easier to hug and climb aboard in unhappy conditions (as long as you remain leashed to it) than an enclosed cockpit-style kayak. LGs facts are spot on re: kayak deaths in Bham Bay and surrounding area.

Erik Borgnes
11/16/10 #9644

There are a few generalizations that one can make with regards to small boat safety:

- The average paddler has only average skills.
- Drowning results from too much time in the water, i.e. exposure.
- The boat that requires the least amount of steps to recover from involuntary submersion (to get most of the body free from being submerged), and that requires the least amount of equipment to do so is the safest.
- Tippy / narrow boats are generally less safe than wider / more stable ones.
- Experienced, well prepared paddlers are generally safer than less experienced paddlers, independent of the type of craft.

SUP's are safest. They require minimal skill, steps, equipment to get your core out of the water. This is true on flatwater and on rough water.

OC1's are next as the outrigger platform makes it relatively easy to get out of the water and one can lean on the iako afterwards for stability.

Sit-on-top top skis / kayaks are next as they take one step and no equipment to get back into the seat where the paddler is sitting in minimal water. One can also then hang their feet over the sides for extra stability afterwards.

Sit-in kayaks less safe because they require safety equipment and additional steps to recover from a capsize and get out of the water and get the cockpit relatively dry (paddle float, pump, sprayskirt). They are also less stable in the intermediate step when you are back in the seat and the cockpit is half-full of water.

Open canoes would be least safe because they are most difficult to get back into from the water, fill with too much water, and would be least stable when partially filled with water. They also have the largest opening through which additional water from waves can keep filling the craft.

If one were to assume a paddler had a “bombproof” roll, then one could likewise assume a “bombproof” recovery from any craft and therefore noone would ever drown - we know this is far from reality though. The same goes for the assumption that the paddler would be wearing a drysuit with thick thermals on.

I remember the KISS principle as do many (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Complexity is a liability on the water.

Erik

lori & beau whitehead

11/16/10 #9645

Great discussion… I knew when I read Happypaddle's post things would get entertaining.

A couple more quick points on SUP's to add to Eric's list … 1) you can knee paddle if things/conditions get dicey. 2) you can still hand paddle very efficiently if you lose or break your paddle. 3) you can break your SUP into 6 pieces and each piece, by itself, makes a better floatation device than a kayak filled with water. 4) You get more chicks standing up. (ok, I made that one up).

Happy paddling,

Beau Whitehead

p peacock
11/16/10 #9648

I don't like blanket statements (generalizations) either, but here's another one; No kayak or surfski is safe if the paddler is a yahoo and isn't prepared for their prospective paddling environment. I have been in epic conditions in my kayak, have rolled and re-entered from a wet exit. For me and me only, a kayak is safer. For someone very experienced in a surfski, a surfski is safer. Larry's right, not all sea kayaks roll the same. You would never catch me in epic conditions in an unfamiliar boat. I'm pretty sure that all surfskis aren't alike either and the epic condition paddler would probably prefer his own boat. And by the way, there are sea kayakers out there that go out playing in big waves and wind and also, gasp, gnarly rock gardens. Larry's is again right,… apples and oranges. The main point is know to know your skills, know your boat, and know how to assess risk.

Dan