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-==== mirror mirror on the wall, which 19'' boat is fastest of all ====
+<<stories:bellingham_only|Previous Story^stories:bellingham_stories|Story List ^ stories:sk_vs_sski_2010|Next Story>>
+===== Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Which 19'' Boat is Fastest of All =====
 **duncanhowat** \\
-/10/10  #9611
+/10/10 #9611
-Well here it is, close to mid nov, dark, cold,( but more wind)not very many post's,so I'm wondering , seeing that a lot of people are getting a least 2 boats, a 17" and a 19", which boat is overall, fastest in verious conditions, and which is best overall. Conditions would be :flat water:just white caps;3-4' waves (wind, it's all we get here) and 6-8' Gorge stuff. And then rebound nasties.Seems like we have experience in the Fenn XT  Huiki R and Epic Sport, (fat boy) and the  Think Eveo. Of course the lay up and overall weight will have a bearing also. I've paddled the R a little and the sport  lot. The Think Evo once and never in the Fenn. So this winter I'll try to sort it out and check in later. DJ, I need to paddle one of your Fenn's and someone's R.I can say this about my lightweight sport, catches waves like crazy ,quicker than my V10 to jump on small waves. Stable as a rock except when suprised by a quartering wave from the rear.But overall in tough water I'm faster in the sport. But thats just me ,old and mid-pack with 3 years in and out of the saddle.
+Well here it is, close to mid nov, dark, cold,( but more wind)not very many post's,so I'm wondering , seeing that a lot of people are getting a least 2 boats, a 17" and a 19", which boat is overall, fastest in serious conditions, and which is best overall. Conditions would be :flat water:just white caps;3-4' waves (wind, it's all we get here) and 6-8' Gorge stuff. And then rebound nasties.Seems like we have experience in the Fenn XT Huiki R and Epic Sport, (fat boy) and the Think Evo. Of course the lay up and overall weight will have a bearing also. I've paddled the R a little and the sport lot. The Think Evo once and never in the Fenn. So this winter I'll try to sort it out and check in later. DJ, I need to paddle one of your Fenn's and someone's R.I can say this about my lightweight sport, catches waves like crazy ,quicker than my V10 to jump on small waves. Stable as a rock except when suprised by a quartering wave from the rear.But overall in tough water I'm faster in the sport. But thats just me ,old and mid-pack with 3 years in and out of the saddle.
 Duncan
 **kathleen petereit** \\
-/11/10  #9613
+/11/10 #9613
 Duncan,
@@ Line 18: / Line 20: @@
 **Reivers Dustin** \\
-/11/10  #9614
+/11/10 #9614
-I believe he is adjusting the rudder and seat position forward also, similar to what was done going from the S1-X to the Special.  This couple of inches changed the way the boat behaves on waves way out of proportion to the small adjustments that were made.
+I believe he is adjusting the rudder and seat position forward also, similar to what was done going from the S1-X to the Special. This couple of inches changed the way the boat behaves on waves way out of proportion to the small adjustments that were made.
-For myself, working the Special downwind is much more fun than the X.  I'm not sure if or why the rudder position matters (lever-arm of turning force relative to the boat's apparent center of moment?)  But a lot of you K-1 and canoe guys are hyper-tuned up on boat trim.  Down-wave trim is a big deal and maybe not the same as flat water trim.
+For myself, working the Special downwind is much more fun than the X. I'm not sure if or why the rudder position matters (lever-arm of turning force relative to the boat's apparent center of moment?) But a lot of you K-1 and canoe guys are hyper-tuned up on boat trim. Down-wave trim is a big deal and maybe not the same as flat water trim.
-I suspect that the Sport, Evo, R boats match up pretty close.  The Fenn XT is a departure and might stand out one way or another.
+I suspect that the Sport, Evo, R boats match up pretty close. The Fenn XT is a departure and might stand out one way or another.
 I think these more general purpose boats are neater than the cat's pajamas.
@@ Line 31: / Line 33: @@
 **dnjacobson79** \\
-/11/10  #9615
+/11/10 #9615
-Good post, I like the discussion regarding phat boats.  I've been impressed with the New XT design, especially like the fact the rudder has been moved forward six inches for better traction while surfing.  I'm doing a little experiment next year and will race the carbon XT in the big sloppy races, stick to the Elite for everything else.  Taking the 36lb glass XT out in the 'really big days' has been great thus far, and honestly the only time I notice the weight is unloading the boat at Wildcat Cove, once it hits the water it's my big day race car.
+Good post, I like the discussion regarding phat boats. I've been impressed with the New XT design, especially like the fact the rudder has been moved forward six inches for better traction while surfing. I'm doing a little experiment next year and will race the carbon XT in the big sloppy races, stick to the Elite for everything else. Taking the 36lb glass XT out in the 'really big days' has been great thus far, and honestly the only time I notice the weight is unloading the boat at Wildcat Cove, once it hits the water it's my big day race car.
-After the Athens Olympics, slalom kayak length regulations decreased by one meter and racers around the world tested different length hulls.  Slalom kayaking is a completely different sport and the race time these days is about 90 seconds depending on the venue, but surprisingly everyone got faster in shorter boats - even the really big racers.\\
+After the Athens Olympics, slalom kayak length regulations decreased by one meter and racers around the world tested different length hulls. Slalom kayaking is a completely different sport and the race time these days is about 90 seconds depending on the venue, but surprisingly everyone got faster in shorter boats - even the really big racers.\\
-It seems like the math on hull design for a flatwater boat is far simpler than a surf ski, which in my mind is a combination of flatwater, endurance, and 'whitewater' performance factors.  When you're 90 minutes into a race and having to deal with swell and wind from the side, maybe a stable hull to work from is the ticket?  The closes I got to the lead pack in California this past summer was shaking Mocke's hand at the start, so maybe it's time for this Whatcom paddler to go phat....
+It seems like the math on hull design for a flatwater boat is far simpler than a surf ski, which in my mind is a combination of flatwater, endurance, and 'whitewater' performance factors. When you're 90 minutes into a race and having to deal with swell and wind from the side, maybe a stable hull to work from is the ticket? The closes I got to the lead pack in California this past summer was shaking Mocke's hand at the start, so maybe it's time for this Whatcom paddler to go phat….
-Do I see a 'Whatcom Paddler Phat Boy Experiment'  in the future for surfski.info??\\
+Do I see a 'Whatcom Paddler Phat Boy Experiment' in the future for surfski.info??\\
 -DJ
-**Larry <lbussing@...>** \\
+**Larry <lbussing@…>** \\
-/11/10  #9616
+/11/10 #9616
-I saw an experiment one time where you set up a short course and raced your boat.  Then you turned around and race a different boat. etc.  At the end you add up all the times on the person and boat.  Now you know who's fastest and which boat is.  sort of.  It'd be a kick to try it on sloppy water in front of Boulevard Park.  Larry B.
+I saw an experiment one time where you set up a short course and raced your boat. Then you turned around and race a different boat. etc. At the end you add up all the times on the person and boat. Now you know who's fastest and which boat is. sort of. It'd be a kick to try it on sloppy water in front of Boulevard Park. Larry B.
 **Larry Goolsby** \\
-/11/10  #9618
+/11/10 #9618
-Duncan.....One of these days when it's bumpy on the bay, we'll have to swap your Fat Boy for my R. I've never paddled a Sport. Could be interesting.\\
+Duncan…..One of these days when it's bumpy on the bay, we'll have to swap your Fat Boy for my R. I've never paddled a Sport. Could be interesting.\\
 LG
-**happypaddle <happypaddle@...>** \\
+**gdcinbc <gdcinbc@…>**
-/12/10  #9620
-feet long, 17 inches wide AND you'd be able to self rescue with a roll...
+/13/10 #9630
-http://www.valleyseakayaks.com/content/boats/sport/rapier-20
+I've owned both an Evo and V10 Sport. I'd have to say in the flat to mellow stuff, the Evo is slightly faster (to me). For some reason i have found it surfed waves a bit better and just feels like it goes thru the water a bit smoother. When it gets choppy/sloppy i go faster in the Sport, (balance is not my strength!).\\
-**Larry <lbussing@...>** \\
-/12/10  #9621
-Interesting, anyone in our area have one?  Larry B
-**Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@...>** \\
-/12/10  #9622
-Anyone think 'they bad,' check out the Arctic Cheetah and paddler Martin Leonard.  Martin paddled the entire Northwest Passage, crossed the Bering Sea, and endeavors to paddle the entire Alaskan coastline... mostly in a custom 20' foot long 14.5" waterline enclosed cockpit boat designed after a ski and a K2, with a wing blade.  I spent a week paddling with him in the Broken Islands, in a previous life, and his quiet camp fire stories are incredible.  His alpine approach to crossings, in which he equates speed to safety, are unique.  You won't hear about him because he's mellow, but check out the complete story of the development of the Cheetah, and his expeditions, at
-http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html  .
-**Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@...>** \\
-/12/10  #9623
-Oh yeah, also... the Bering Sea crossing was done on an old style 19' ski (not what we would call phat).  The group paddled 400 miles, crossed 27 miles to the Diomede Islands in fog... and were 6 miles north of the islands when the fog cleared.  Currents, huge seas and 25 knot winds made progress south impossible.  They ended up getting rescued by natives in a skin boat; my friend Kelly's boat was later found in Barrows in the ice.  Kelly was dropped off on the Russian Diomede, and after the guns were put down, he convinced them to go rescue the rest of the group.  Martin and his partner somehow managed to get a boat, and paddled to Russia, thus achieving the destination... a great camp story for sure.  It was this trip where Martin saw the potential of touring on a ski, which led to the Arctic Cheetah.
-http://martinleonard.blogspot.com/2006/02/paddling-inuit-passage.html
-**steven wort** \\
-/12/10  #9624
-Dan Henderson had one hanging from his ceiling for a couple years, dont know if its still there, you could give him a call and find out.\\
-\\
-There was a review of this boat, and a couple of other comparable high perf sea kayaks - Nelo Sea Vanquish, Nelo FW2000, Sipre katabatic?, etc on a UK surf ski site, but my link to that is now dead :(\\
-\\
-The Rapier 20 was generally perceived to be the most stable ( and slowest) of the group.\\
-\\
-Valley had one at the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium a few years back, and I took a look, but no paddle.  The cockpit opening looks pretty small for a racing boat, and it has monster thigh braces, and a VERY sculptured seat that looks like it would NOT be very conducive to a powerfull forward stroke?\\
-\\
-~Steve
-Reivers Dustin\\
-/12/10  #9625
-Listed weight is 48 pounds.  The low seating position, rudder position and other points Steve makes below are enough for me:  no way.
-There's a handful of guys who could beat me in this boat for the first 3 miles.  Longer than this distance and I'm good.  Nobody anywhere can have as much fun on this boat in waves as I can in an XT, R, Sport, OC-1 boat, etc.
-Apples and oranges.
-**happypaddle <happypaddle@...>** \\
-/12/10  #9627
-JZ will tell ya a story of racing a few years ago in his S1X when a guy (Sean Morley) came blasting by him in a Valley Rapier to finish just two minutes behind Eric Moll and second in HPK class...
-Check out the race results  http://soundrowersphoto.org/results/cbay2007.htm
-**Michael Gregory** \\
-/12/10  #9629
-Rapier has proven itself to be a very fast boat many times over.  However, it's still a kayak with an enclosed cockpit.  I don't know of any offshore racers that prefer an enclosed cockpit kayak to a ski.   Practiced roll or not those boats are less suitable to long rough races, for all but a very few.  Mike.\\
-\\
-**gdcinbc <gdcinbc@...>** \\
-/13/10  #9630
-I've owned both an Evo and V10 Sport. I'd have to say in the flat to mellow stuff, the Evo is slightly faster (to me).  For some reason i have found it surfed waves a bit better and just feels like it goes thru the water a bit smoother. When it gets choppy/sloppy i go faster in the Sport, (balance is not my strength!).\\
 BUT, with the above stated, these two boats are so close overall that it really is up to the paddler to make the difference.\\
 my 2 cents\\
 Gary (Vancouver)
-**brianpage2b1** \\
-/15/10  #9637
-Ecomarine up here in Vancouver BC has had and sold a few of the Rapier's  in the last two years. You might be able to demo one if Dan sold his.
-My impression of the boat on a test paddle was that it was disappointing in performance for such a sexy looking boat.  You give up some safety (unless you have a bomb proof roll), re-entry would be no less difficult than in a Necky Phantom, and for not much gain in the speed department.  I concurr with Mike!
-**happypaddle <happypaddle@...>** \\
-/16/10  #9639
-Since the only waves we're chasing here in the PNW are frigid, hypothermia & death inducing wind-induced, rather than sweeeet, tropical ocean swells, having a closed hull racing craft with similar specs to a sit on top surfski, even if just for winter training, provides more options for self-rescue & hence improves safety, bottomline.
-Seats & rudders can be switched out to improve comfort.  Rolls can be learned.  Lives can be saved.
-**Reivers Dustin** \\
-/16/10  #9640
-I've been wondering what others might reply to this.
-For myself, I'm convinced that enclosed in a cockpit can never be as safe as sealed vessel for the kayaking public.
-George Gronseth is a pretty good source for kayak safety.  His report on greenland style kayak instruction from the natives is great information.  A key statement he made is that for native kayakers: seperation from the boat is death.  The parka they wear is made an exact fit for the person - as is the boat.  From the time that new paddlers are allowed in the boat, they are expected to roll.  They are taught to read weather.  They can tell distance from shore by wave/wind patterns.  They are aggresively, repeatedly dumped and expected to show instinctive rolling with and without a paddle.
-Dale and I had talked briefly about area paddling fatalities.  Does anyone remember the lady's name that died just offshore from Larrabee perhaps 15 years ago?  She guided for Whatcom Parks and for parties all over the place.  She was a highly respected touring guide.  Found upside down in her boat.  The speculation I heard was that her new equipment somehow trapped her.
-My point?  No kayaker around here has the skills that the traditional kayakers have.  Paul Caffyn? sure.  (Made himself cups of tea on the deck of his Nordcap as he rounded Australia).  Derek Hutchinson? sure.
-Me? no way.
-**steven wort** \\
-/16/10  #9641
-It’s all about where you want to put your time. Learning to roll, or learning to remount a ski.\\
-I took a look at the CDC fatality rates a while back, and kayak vs surfski isn’t broken out, but kayak vs Canoe is, and deaths from canoes are way higher than from kayaks.

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