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===== Local Race Fees =====

**Discussion started in relation to entry fees for 9th Annual Deception Pass Dash**

**allipp01**

11/18/14  #16535

I thought $55 a bit much, but decided to enter online......they then tacked on tax, and a ''reservation fee" and the total came out to over $61!  Umm, no thanks.

I do still want to do the race, but phew, talk about a high entrance fee to start with, then getting nickel and dimed to death!  I'll have to think this one over.

**Nicholas Cryder** \\
11/18/14  #16536

$61 and no prize money? That stings. That would never fly in other sports btw; cycling comes to mind. Might be time to round up some sponsors and sweeten the pot. Chop chop.

**John Rybczyk** \\
11/18/14  #16537

I hate to see race directors getting bashed for "high" fees. $55 is not high for a water race. Costs have sky-rocketed over the years and the vast, vast majority of race directors are doing this for free.  Park rental fees, race insurance, awards, food, drink, gas for safety boats, logos, t-shirts, launch fees, permits, security, flagging, buoys, air horns, rope, duct tape, batteries, maps, signs, waste and waste disposal, tarps, tents, chairs, tables, fuel, advertising, web pages, timings, …good god, it's really, really expensive to put on a race.  You guys think YOU'RE being nickeled and dimed to death, try being a race director.

So why do we see low entrance fees at times? Prices are low because so many people volunteer their time and their resources. Basically, when you ask for a $25 race, what your are really asking is for lots of people to give you stuff for free, whether that "stuff" be goods or services.  No way are you paying $25 for race if you aren't getting a lot of stuff for free.  Plus, our races typically attract 40 to 50 participants; we don't have economies of scale working for us and those kinds of numbers don't attract sponsorships.

So, go ahead, look a race director in the eye and tell him that $55 is too much and that he should work harder to get you more free stuff.  That's kind  of hard to swallow when you're sitting in a $4000 boat and you have another one, one inch wider, sitting on the car in case the water gets too rough. First world problem.

**Nicholas Cryder** \\
11/18/14  #16538

Actually I do think $55 is pretty steep when compared to the sound rowers races, in addition to other sports. I would hope that there is room for honest discussions around what it takes to host a race, vs what the race experience entails without people having to shout each other down.

We're fortunate to have a lot of great races here in PNW, and no one is trying to dog an organizer or ask for something to be free, which is a bit of a strawman if you consider that were both giving feedback on value, as well as asking for more community buy-in and support. Just because I paddle a 4k ski or three doesn't mean I am disqualified from having a voice in event value. And I've seen more than a few sub 4k boats being paddled in races.

Something to consider: Event sponsorship is a great way to pull the community together around events, defuse costs for the promoter, and attract new athletes (something our sport desperately needs). Yeah, it takes a lot of work and expertise, but everything worth doing often does.

-N-

**John Rybczyk**

11/18/14  #16539

Nick, when you tell a race director on a public forum that it, "Might be time to round up some sponsors and sweeten the pot. Chop chop.", that qualifies as "dogging" in my book. "Chop, chop?"  Really?

**michael.medler@...** \\
11/18/14  #16540

Methinks I hear you volunteering to lead up some work soliciting sponsorships... Chop Chop.

**Steve Scoggins** \\
11/18/14  #16541

I hereby nominate Cryder as "director of finding corporate race sponsorship"...:)

I don't know man, I don't think our events are quite big enough to draw big company money.  It's usually gift certificates, T shirts, and stuff people like, given by people who like us, because they usually are us.  You're right, things that take work are usually worth it....so I will probably just work a little extra here and there so I can pay the fee and play boat race with everybody....because its fun.

Steve

**Michael Lee**

11/18/14  #16542

No disrespect to any race director, but $61.00 is steep for a water race...or any single-leg, single-day race.  I have great respect for the race directors who volunteer their time to organize and oversee these great events that we all enjoy.  But expressing your opinion regarding a race fee is not the same as bashing a race director.  I agree with Alan, the cost is steep.

The bottom line is that if you don't want to pay the price, you don't have to race.  It's just too bad that this race is so expensive.

**John Rybczyk**

11/18/14  #16543

My comments were not directed at Alan,  His comments were not disrespectful.

**Nicholas Cryder** \\
11/18/14  #16544

I really didn't mean any disrespect John, and I think perhaps you're misunderstanding the tone and intention of my comments. Chop chop is a friendly term bud. Sometimes, like now, its a good thing to have a public discussion and try to offer constructive comments and ideas, without making it personal.

**Michael Lee** \\
11/18/14  #16545

I agree, Alan is always respectful to others.

**John Rybczyk**

11/18/14  #16546

I'm over it Nick, I'm not happy unless I can rant a couple of times a month.  Besides, I felt that it was time for me to step up and get picked on here, to give DJ a break.  No worries.

**Nicholas Cryder** \\
11/18/14  #16547

Here here! Time to put our paddles where our mouths are eh? ;)

**Kevin Olney** \\
11/18/14  #16548

I have to agree with John on this one. I think we are a little spoiled by the low entry fees for Sound Rowers races (and other races like the DHC). I don't know about cycling, but running races are rarely less than $50 and they attract hundreds to thousands of participants. Have you been skiing lately? Lift tickets are $50-$75. Go to a ballgame?  $60 will get you a seat 20 rows above the visitor's dugout. 'Hawks game?! $100 and up!

My point is that we often spend similar amounts of money on recreational activities like a concert, or sporting event, or dinner out, where the recipient of that money is openly profiting from our experience. No one is making any money at these paddling races. Instead a lot of time and energy is donated for the sake of the fun and exciting events we all enjoy.

After the Wildside race this year JD was asking us how we felt about the value of the event (I think it was $45/paddler) because he had heard grumblings over the price. For that event, in that place, with the world-class competition present? "Are you kidding!" I said. "It's as steal!!"

Kevin O

**allipp01**

11/18/14  #16550

I actually wasn't bashing the race director for the $55 fee; I had resigned myself to paying that.  It was when I went to check out and saw the extra fees that I balked.  I can understand the sales tax since it's a business that is running the race rather than a non profit entity.  What really got to me was the $2.00 reservation fee.  A measly 2 bucks and I opened this whole can of worms!

Ohh well, I think I'm going to suck it up and register, but I better do it in the next 2 days or the fee goes up to $70 plus plus.

**duncanhowat** \\
11/18/14  #16552

Mmmm, with a small amount of business and financial statement knowledge, I've been trying to work out the P&L on this race. At $65.00 ave and 100+ entries thats about $6500 gross.  To be honest at lk Samish we charge less than half that . $800. facility rental, which I doubt that the state park runs that much, but we can find out. Salmon BBQ, our labor costs which are pd, gas for boats  and yes we have volunteers. With that low entry fee we still pay for everything, plus return a small amount to sound rowers. But we're in it for no profit. This race must be for profit, which is OK, just, it nice to know where it's going if you care about that.  Bob put on the Canadian Champs with what, about $12,000 in cash prizes, Tee shirts , meal, shuttles,safety boats, music, etc.etc, for what $100. Well worth it.This race? Hope for 20+ ks wind then you'll get your $$ worth. D

**joanandthom** \\
11/18/14  #16553

I have been organizing the Nooksack Summer Marathon Canoe Race for 10 years , so I have a pretty good handle on What it cost to put on a race. It Ain't cheap. With park rental ,insurance, port-a-potties, safety boats, awards, And then throw in a Bar-b-Que  after race.it is a chore to put a race on and most of us do it for the love of our sport, not to make a profit. as a retired business owner I can not and do not hold it against somebody wanting to make a profit on an event. If the organizers can attract enough people to pay the asking rate, more power to them. But I choose not to spend my hard earned money a race such as this.\\
Thom
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