Surfski Knowledge Base

Bob Putnam
06/07/10 #8629

Congrats to everyone who completed Round Bowen. Martin put on a good show. This discussion has been debated before, but I think its time for another go around. Now, if I have my way, next year doubles will start 5 minutes ahead of singles. I would like to see how the race shakes out with singles not drafting. Now, I don't want anybody to think that I begrudge people drafting because I don't I'll be the first guy riding a wash if I can, but I'm just curious to see if it would make for a better race.

Would boats get strung out 100 yards apart with everybody hammering away time trial fashion or would packs form with single skis drafting each other. That would be cool. I supposed it would only happen where you have several paddlers of similar ability. Certainly there is a range of speeds out there. But if some groups did form I would imagine there could be some interesting tactics. On Sunday all the groups formed around doubles with everybody going the pace of the doubles until either the double picked up the pace and shook people or people faded and fell off.

Normally at Bowen I go out hard and try to hang on for as long as I can. Slowly fading while people pick me off one by one. But this year we started slow and stayed steady. I was surprise by how far ahead some people were and how over 30 minutes we would catch them.

There were lots of singles hanging on to us and its fun to be in a group,but I think it would be way more interesting if all the singles and doubles were fighting amongst themselves. Perhaps there should be a singles only race, however that may exclude some people. Essentially the US Surf Ski Champs is like this and there were certainly no packs around me. It was a solo race. Perhaps if it is flat it would be a different story.

We'll try this out on a Tuesday Night and let you know how it goes.
Bp

Re: Pack Tactics - KEEP IT AS IS!!!!!
dnjacobson79
06/08/10 #8632

Great race Sunday, and fun…..

We've had this debate before about drafting during races etc… and I think because it was flat conditions it turned out to be a drafting race, but I think if it was bumpy or a downwinder it would of been every boat for him/herself, and I'd bet the top pack of singles would of been ahead of the doubles present at the race.

BUT, my two cents is keep racing fun. We heard team Raymond might of not been happy about having a drift pack around them. They tried a couple sprints during the race to loose folks (doubles and singles) and most us held on. That's part of the fun of racing, if it's flat getting in a pack, holding on, making moves etc… If a double it unhappy that singles are around them, change tactics, train more so you get faster, etc, but don't change the entire structure of the race!!! If we look what's going on with the 'big dogs', in a Euro Challenge this winter the top doubles caught back up with the second and third place singles during the race, the singles worked with them awhile, then they parted ways, and from what I read it was good!!!! Let's try to mold local races so it's fun, so there are packs, tactics, etc to add a different layer of excitement when the conditions turn out to be calmer then desired.

Enough said, need to go paddle before work…..DJ

Re: Pack Tactics - KEEP IT AS IS!!!!!
Jeff Hegedus <jhegedus@…>
06/08/10 #8633

NO RULES, just keep it FUN, FAST and FREE. If we're not there to mix it up, we might as well just go paddle solo.

Re: Pack Tactics - KEEP IT AS IS!!!!!
Michael Gregory
06/08/10 #8634

-Ummm. I hear what you are saying. However, working together in a pack of paddlers means that turns are taken at the lead, PULLING. Sitting on the wake of another boat without taking a turn pulling is something else. I kinda think that this “sitting-in” is what is what is niggling some racers.
-Our local weekend small time races are loose and ungoverned. Behaviors on the race course are pretty much a “free for all” (eg. did anyone hear a starters horn blast at Bowen this year?). I suggest that poor racing etiquette will get one a unsolicited swim or in sanctioned paddle racing. A disqualification in Triathlon. A ticket to the pavement in cycling.
-This subject has been an ongoing contentious dialog. What I have heard over the years is, singles should not take long, advantage building, drafts of doubles. The reasoning is clear and logical.
Mike.

Re: Pack Tactics
Larry <lbussing@…>
06/08/10 #8635

There have been interesting comments, but I think it would be fun either way. I have to tell you though, in 20+ years of paddling I have never seen a pack like that before. 7-8 boats drafting, 2-3 across, for the entire race! All 20 miles of it.

Larry B

Re: Pack Tactics - KEEP IT AS IS!!!!!
romoigula
06/08/10 #8636

I think rules that enforce etiquette and fairness help increase the “fun” our group seems afraid of losing. Coming from sports with well established rules (running, sailing, triathlon) I find this resistance odd. It seems people tend to cherry pick rules from cycling or sailing to justify various behaviors.

It's not really fair to suggest doubles, “change tactics, train more so you get faster.” The same could apply to singles who can't keep up without a fat draft.

Re: Pack Tactics
Erik Borgnes
06/08/10 #8638

The problem that I've seen is when there are maybe one or two fast doubles at a race, the race really starts before the start because the singles are positioning themselves in the prime location next to the double so that they can be in the perfect wake-riding spot from the word “go”. And, because there are pretty much only two great spots on a double's bow wake and sometimes an additional one on the double's stern wake, it becomes kind of a knockdown drag-out fight to get onto the prime spot from the start of the race. If you happen to be a single ahead, say 1/2 mile after the start and then the double with two or three drafting singles comes by you, then that single has to decide whether to aggressively push someone off their spot by getting closer and closer, clanging paddles, and pretty much trying to intimidate someone off of their prime drafting spot. That happens all the time and I wouldn't really call it good sportsmanship.

When I think of all the drafting groups I've been in over the years, if it's been all singles, then clanging paddles is usually met with an “oops, sorry” and a loosening up of one's position on another single's wake. It's usually pretty relaxed and everyone's rotating and taking pulls and such. When one single tries to break away, then there's a real strategic decision of, “do I follow that single or stay with this single here, or those other singles on the other side?” What's the best strategy now? Who's wake should I maneuver onto? Should I pick up the pace and try to drop so and so? etc.

But, in virtually all races where I've been in a group of singles drafting doubles, it's been a bit less “gentlemanly” because when you've got the prime spot on the double, you're not going to give it up for any reason and you'll even squeeze closer to the double and get in their paddle exit territory, just to keep another lurking single from maneuvering you off the prime draft spot. So, you usually see a bit higher tension in these groups and more paddle clashing and usually the doubles get frustrated by the too-close singles and by the competition for their wake spots. Also, now the singles' strategy is completely different because their goal is to merely sit and protect their spot for the whole race, then sprint to the finish. If another single tries to take off from the group, the other singles usually just ride wake and watch the guy burn up on his own. So, there usually is not singles' racing strategy other than stay on the best part of the wake and hope the doubles lift the pace so that the other singles on less-than-optimal wake spots, fall off. It's a battle of attrition with the only strategy that of protecting your prime spot.

Just because some larger, higher profile races like the Eurochallenge and some SA races, and So. Cal races sometimes start singles and doubles together doesn't mean it's the best way or the most legitimate way to race. There are lots of dumb sports habits that have carried over for no good reason. And, if you'll notice, every important race separates singles and doubles, with important being defined as championship races.

It's not so much about fairness or about rules and regulations, but, as others have stated, it really comes down to what's most fun for everyone? Is it more fun to have doubles racing other doubles in their own pack and singles packing up only with singles? Or, does everyone like fighting for the spots on the doubles' wakes? and who were the singles that were with the group in the beginning but couldn't hang on because all the prime wake spots were taken - what did they think?

The most fun races I've done were ones like the Blackburn Challenge where you start with 60 other singles and are in a pack of 15 singles for the first 5 miles, then in a pack of 5 or so for the next 10-15 miles, all taking pulls and eyeing each other and continually plotting your strategy and guessing what the others' strategy is. The least enjoyable races were ones where I was stuck on a double's wake (because I couldn't drop them, and I certainly wasn't going to let it go if the other guy (s) weren't going to), fighting to keep my spot, and simply counting down the miles until the finishing sprint.

Erik

Re: Pack Tactics
Bob Putnam
06/09/10 #8641

Great Discussion. Its good to hear from all sides of the race. So Tonight at the Tuesday Night Race..we started the doubles 5 minutes ahead, Sea Kayaks and Surf skis. There weren't many doubles tonight. Now Mike Fitz and Jr Fitz who were in a double ski, might say it wasn't as fun a race because usually they are surrounded by single skis, banging paddles and cursing. Tonight they did a time trial

The singles started and there was a good group. Most people were tired from Round Bowen (which is Martin's Race, not mine) Nobody really pulled away and the lead pack was about 7 skis. Which dwindled a bit. BTW it was Super Hero Night so people were dress in costume, and Remmler took the every opportunity to break every unwritten and written rule there is. I think because he felt he was in disguise with a re-usable shopping bag and a mask over his head, he thought nobody would notice. He resembled a eco friendly Klan member!!?? Wash Riding Scum WRS is one acronym Remmler has already earned, but tonight he has added on. WRCCS. Wash Riding Corner Cutting Scum WEUITSFF (who ends up in the sprint for first)

Sorry I digress. At any rate, It was a good experiment. Some people liked it and some didn't. its supposed to be about fun I think most people had fun.

But I think about the Tour De Indian Arm where Ian M wash road DK and partner to the finish. Certainly Ian is a great paddler and not many people could wash ride such a fast double. But my question is could he have maintained that pace and would Brandon have been closer. Would the race have been closer. Certainly Ian probably had fun riding wash of such a fast boat. Could he have maintained such a pace by himself?

Also if the race is rough this discussion is moot. But for flatwater I think there is some validity of splitting the two categories. Maybe not for eternity But maybe for a know flatwater race.

I also think it comes down to numbers. if you have only 4 double skis at a race it doesn't make much sense as the difference between boats could be huge and they will just end up paddling on their own. If you get 60 single skis at a race maybe split the groups off.
Bob